[Davisgig] Davisgig Digest, Vol 2, Issue 8

Thu Jan 8 14:59:53 PST 2015

Residential customer here. Ex-UCD admin staff. Many UCD affiliates know and love high bandwidth. Happy to pay for it even if it exceeds my average need. Also, we need to have an alternative to private monopolies that do not offer what we want or need. 

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> On Jan 8, 2015, at 12:00 PM, davisgig-request at list.omsoft.com wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Rob's Proposal (Russell Neches)
>   2. Re: Rob's Proposal (Robert Nickerson)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 16:02:12 -0800
> From: Russell Neches <russell at vort.org>
> To: Bill Broadley <bill at broadley.org>
> Cc: davisgig at list.omsoft.com
> Subject: Re: [Davisgig] Rob's Proposal
> Message-ID: <1420675332.2833.3.camel at vort.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> I actually don't think the technical or financial details are especially
> compelling arguments. That isn't to say that municipal broadband is not
> cheaper, faster and technologically superior, or that it delivers better
> service. The truly compelling argument is actually a moral argument.
> 
> Right now, consumer broadband networks are all controlled by companies
> that are openly undermining our democratic institutions. They use their
> power as monopolies to damage markets and destroy innovative new
> companies. They are complicit with unconstitutional mass surveillance.
> They have deliberately resisted deployment of modern technology because
> they see artificial bandwidth scarcity as a profit center. Consumers
> have warmer and friendlier feelings for the Internal Revenue Service
> than for AT&T, Comcast and Time Warner.
> 
> These companies are bad actors.
> 
> There are real and significant disadvantages to public utilities.
> However, the disadvantages are insignificant when set alongside the
> caustic effect of tolerating monopolies in our communities. 
> 
> The single biggest advantage of a public utility is that your
> relationship with it is subject to democratic institutions. Citizens can
> set their complaints before the relevant commissions and the city
> council, cast their ballots for candidates that want to address problems
> they care about, or run for office themselves. These mechanisms of
> redress are imperfect, but an imperfect mechanism is better than NO
> MECHANISM WHATSOEVER.
> 
> Well, that isn't quite true. You can influence the broadband providers.
> Simply buy a hundred billion dollars of their stock, and they'll take
> your comments under advisement.
> 
> 
> Russell
> 
> On Wed, 2015-01-07 at 01:08 -0800, Bill Broadley wrote:
>>> From: Shneor Sherman <szsherm at yahoo.com> Sent: Monday, January 5,
>>> 2015 11:27 PM To: Fei Li Subject: Re: [Davisgig] Rob's Proposal
>>> 
>>> I can currently stream HD 24/7 if I were so inclined.
>> 
>> What data plan do you have?  With who?  What is your monthly cap?
>> 
>> If I login to comcast it claims I used 225GB in Nov, 173GB in Dec, and
>> 58GB so far (as of Jan 7th) in January.
>> 
>> Netflix claims 3GB an hour for HD.  24/7 * 3GB for a month would be over
>> 2000GB a month... and that's assuming you don't upload stream it
>> anywhere else with sling.
>> 
>>> I also have
>>> sling included with my satellite subscription, and it's nice to be
>>> able to stream that when I travel. But much as I like the idea of
>>> gigabyte to the home, while quad density HDTVs are available, no one
>>> is providing the service
>> 
>> Netflix and Amazon seem to have a fair bit of content.  Popular shows
>> like Breaking bad, House of Cards.  Seems pretty popular with new series
>> as well, alpha house, transparent, and orphan black.   Looks like dozens
>> of different tv series, movies, etc.  I'm sure you could burn quite a
>> bit of bandwidth watching them.  4k seems to be gaining popularity
>> pretty quick.  Wasn't that long ago that a 40" 1080P tv was $400.
>> 
>>> and no one will until enough homes have
>>> these currently very expensive models.
>> 
>> 39" 4k TVs's start under $400, not what I'd call "very expensive".  They
>> will of course get cheaper and more popular over time.  I didn't spend
>> $400 on my last TV, but many do.
>> 
>>> I understand your position as
>>> a millenial, but you are a tiny minority of Davis homeowners.
>> 
>> My 10 year old daughter would easily burn through 250GB given a roku or
>> tablet and unlimited acces.
>> 
>>> It's
>>> homeowners who are the majority in Davis, and until you can spell out
>>> advangates of gigabyte internet, no one will pay much attention. So
>>> what's the killer app or apps that will make it worthwhile? Also,
>> 
>> Replacing $75-$150 TV packages with 100s of channels of crap to get a
>> few channels you like.  What's worse that cable/sat has a rigid schedule
>> and you have to worry about what is playing when and on which channel or
>> the hassle of managing a DVR ahead of time.  God forbid a sports game
>> delays what you were trying to record.
>> 
>> My daughter is 10 years old and as far as I know has never seen a TV
>> commercial.  She watches what she wants, when she wants to, with no
>> forced commercials, previews, etc.
>> 
>> Currently we pay $7.50 or so to netflix for streaming, and $80 a year
>> (last I checked, I think it got more expensive recently) for amazon prime.
>> 
>> Thus the rapidly gaining popularity of cord cutting.  Even HBO and
>> Cinemax, Showtime, ESPN, CBS, Sling, dish, etc are now coming around to
>> realizing people like streaming/cord cutting.
>> 
>>> what good is it if I can't afford the services? Rob's document talks
>>> about 100 mbps to the home - that's one-tenth of the proposed
>>> capacity.
>> 
>> 100 mbit is plenty for common use cases, however if you actually use 100
>> mbit comcast and/or AT&T will get rather unhappy with you and likely
>> terminate your service and leave you no recourse.  At 100 mbit you hit
>> the comcast cap in just over 4 hours.
>> 
>>> Who needs the rest? Again, what is this going to do for me?
>>> Unlimited data sounds nice, but what does that mean in practice? I
>> 
>> Not having to carefully managing your bandwidth use.  Want to leave a
>> video hangout going to you can watch your kid/cat/aquarium?  Want to
>> backup that large music/video/photo connection?  How about watch more
>> than 1 hour a day of 4k content on a $400 TV?
>> 
>> How about backing up one of the smaller disks you can buy today, a 1TB.
>> Do you want to wait 8 months with comcast using 125GB month so you
>> still have half the data for other uses?
>> 
>>> can see, for example, that medically frail homebound individuals
>>> might benefit from transmission of huge amounts of medical data, but
>>> 10 mbps should easily manage that (if I trust the connection). Sorry
>>> to be so pragmatic, hopefully someone out there has more ideas.
>> 
>> Medical data is pretty small these days compared to video streaming.
>> I've seen grand parents consume a fair bit of data just doing a 1080P
>> video conference regularly with grand kids.  With a bit of creativity
>> you can even play board games.  My samsung TV came with a video cam +
>> multiple directional antennas designed to let a living room of people
>> interact with a living room of people elsewhere with bidirectional 1080P
>> video and wide band (full duplex) audio.
>> 
>> Granted the most popular use I see is a 3 way video conference between
>> my kid, family in Pennsylvania, and other family in Germany.  Typically
>> for 1-3 hours on weekends depending on what's going on.  Kids love to
>> show off artwork, paintings, drawings, lego buildings, even performances
>> with pianos or violins.  I've been at more meetings where some people
>> are there physically, some are just connected via laptop.  From anywhere
>> from science meetings to singing happy birthday together.
>> 
>> Video hangouts have replaced most things I used to use phone calls for,
>> kids, even toddlers love it.  Peek-a-boo isn't very fun to play over a
>> phone ;-).
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 17:16:14 -0800
> From: Robert Nickerson <rob at omsoft.com>
> To: davisgig at list.omsoft.com
> Subject: Re: [Davisgig] Rob's Proposal
> Message-ID: <54ADDA5E.8080800 at omsoft.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Hi
> 
> SlingTV is a good complement to this project, it is my intent that we 
> stock the DavisGig data center with as much content provider servers 
> right on the network floor.
> 
> Google, Netflix and others will work with you to drop their server right 
> there at the edge of your network so that is all available quickly. It 
> also makes cloud providers a bit more "local" when we can go see their 
> servers in our municipal facility.
> 
> thx
> RAN
> 
>> On 1/5/2015 7:53 PM, Fei Li wrote:
>> One option is to see if we can get service providers to provide something like Sling TV: http://www.cnet.com/news/dish-launches-20-sling-tv-streaming-video-service-with-channel-lineup-that-includes-espn-disney/
>> 
>> Millenials (like me) are unlikely to purchase traditional cable TV subscriptions unless bundled for cheaper with internet, such as Comcast's model. The ability to stream HD television content 24/7 would require a reasonably fast connection as well as unmetered internet, which no ISP currently provides at the basic consumer level. We're not only provding speed, we're providing legitimately unlimited data.
>> 
>> But we need to figure out to a way to make the speed aspect attractive as well. ;)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 5, 2015, at 3:26 PM, Shneor Sherman<szsherm at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've read Rob's proposal. My concern is the cost and how it will be repaid. Incidentally, I noticed that there is no rough example of repayment for homeowners. That's a necessity, as the document is incomplete without it.
>>> 
>>> Rob's document does not demonstrate any benefits to gigabyte fiber to the home beyond those available now. For example, I can stream content quite comfortably right now at 5 or 6 mbps. What will gigabyte internet provide beyond that? Whatever that may be, it needs to be addressed. What will I be able to do that I previously could not?
>>> 
>>> The issue of homeowner cost is of supreme importance, since it is homeowners who will have to vote on this. So the cost and benefits need to be specifically spelled out. Given the rising cost of water in Davis, there has to be benefit to fiber that will be very valuable to households, or voters will simply reject any increased cost for living in Davis. Just talking about gigabyte internet to the home is a loser politically.
>>> 
>>> I am wondering if digging for fiber could be combined with, for example, burying power lines and splitting the cost with PG&E.
>>> 
>>> Just a few preliminary thoughts.
>>> 
>>> Shneor Shermann
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Davisgig mailing list
>>> Davisgig at list.omsoft.com
>>> http://list.omsoft.com/mailman/listinfo/davisgig
>> _______________________________________________
>> Davisgig mailing list
>> Davisgig at list.omsoft.com
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> 
> -- 
> Rob Nickerson
> 
> CEO
> Om Networks
> UCD Class of 96
> C: 530-848-3865
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> End of Davisgig Digest, Vol 2, Issue 8
> **************************************